How do you listen at home?
Hello all. I've made it a goal this year to improve my home listening set-up for my MP3s.
I was looking at the Seagate Central but I'm reluctant to purchase one simply because I don't like the idea of the storage being hard-wired to the media player. To my mind, a hard drive is a hard drive is a hard drive. Or at least that's the way it should be. So as I started to think further about my potential setup I figured the ideal product would be something that would take a USB connected drive and stream the music that is on it. I did a bit of googling but it is hard to search for a product when you don't know what it is called. So I was wondering if anybody could 'name' what I'm looking for. Here are my ideal specs.
1) No native storage of its own. Hooks up to one or more drives via usb
2) Has some sort of firmware which enables searching and browsing of collection
3) Has separate video and audio output so that I could search/browse on my TV and listen on a home audio system.
Alternatively, if folks are willing describe what they use to play MP3s at home and how it is working for them, I'm all ears (eyes).
I was looking at the Seagate Central but I'm reluctant to purchase one simply because I don't like the idea of the storage being hard-wired to the media player. To my mind, a hard drive is a hard drive is a hard drive. Or at least that's the way it should be. So as I started to think further about my potential setup I figured the ideal product would be something that would take a USB connected drive and stream the music that is on it. I did a bit of googling but it is hard to search for a product when you don't know what it is called. So I was wondering if anybody could 'name' what I'm looking for. Here are my ideal specs.
1) No native storage of its own. Hooks up to one or more drives via usb
2) Has some sort of firmware which enables searching and browsing of collection
3) Has separate video and audio output so that I could search/browse on my TV and listen on a home audio system.
Alternatively, if folks are willing describe what they use to play MP3s at home and how it is working for them, I'm all ears (eyes).
Comments
Pros: Always available, low power consumption, serves as back up for other files, XBMC is constantly evolving and runs on OSX, Linux, Windows, Android
Cons: XBMC music player is a bit clunky, but video player is great
Plex is another path similar to XBMC that may be simpler and play better with Apple gear, but I don't have any direct experience with it.
As for the former, such things do exist - one example is the Thecus N5550. But I suspect units like these are unusual and expensive because the additional electrical/magnetic shielding required to isolate the audio circuitry from the multiple spinning drives is co$$$tly for the manufacturer.
Also, I hate to pontificate or whatever, but you've got to fight this tendency to think of an "external" drive and a "hard-wired" drive as being somehow fundamentally different. In fact, the only real difference is in the length of the wires that attach the drives to whatever CPU is controlling them.
What you might consider is to buy a mid-level NAS with a USB port or two, like the Seagate or (better yet) a Synology DiskStation, and attach a decent USB DAC unit (if not just a pair of speakers) directly to it that you know will be compatible. The compatibility is the key thing - make sure you research this well in advance. Just because a unit claims to be uPnP- or DLNA-compliant doesn't mean it's going to work properly on a NAS - though the newer the NAS (and the more popular/common the DAC), the more likely it will. For a Synology NAS, this page is helpful (there's info on both speakers and DACs), though far from exhaustive.
I myself use an old SoundBlaster Live 24-bit external box, which I'd mothballed for 3-4 years because it used to drop out every few seconds ("stutter") when attached to my old PC laptop. I hooked it up to the Synology and it works just fine - the old laptop probably just had a crappy USB chipset, I suspect. The SoundBlaster is certainly not the finest DAC in the world, but it sounds better than hooking the computer's analog audio into the big stereo. (Still, my ears are pretty much shot at this point, so I can barely tell the difference!)
Anyhoo, once you have this all in place, you then use your laptop, tablet, or smartphone as a NAS media remote-control device, telling the NAS's built-in media server what to play through the DAC's audio output. The interface can be a dedicated app or a web browser, or both, depending on the media server. Synology NAS boxes also can run iTunes servers if you're using an iPhone or a Mac, but I found that setup to be essentially worthless - it's extremely limited in what it lets you do, management-wise. You're actually better off just accessing the music files through a regular file-share, unless you're the sort who doesn't care at all about organizing the @$#%^$!! things.
HTH?
Before I get into what I am thinking now I just want to clarify my statement about 'hard-wired'. My complaint was specifically about the Seagate Central which appears to offer no way to swap out the drive without destroying the unit. So one might be able to pull the drive out but if the drive fails or a larger drive is needed, the surrounding device is rendered worthless. I view that as something different from an NAS which has drive bays and is designed for adding/removing drives by the end-user. I know I said USB - so your point is well taken about NAS devices. I should have been more clear.
So back to the setup is this what it looks like (MCD - media control device)?
NAS---->MCD---->DAC---->Amp/pre-amp/receiver
Does the media control device sit between the NAS and the DAC or is it more like
NAS<---->DAC---->RECEIVER
|..........^
|..........|
|..........|
|->MCD--|
Such that the MCD sits off of the DAC and tells it which files to pull from the NAS for playback (files don't pass through MCD).
And unfortunately I'm still not clear. Are there any products which aren't computers or smart phones that can serve as an MCD? Ideally I would like to have something that is dedicated to the MCD role and has an interface that can be used through my TV and a remote. Alternatively, can I use a PS3 or an XBOX 360?
That's essentially how my own setup works, but the MCD isn't a separate box, and files do pass through it - strictly speaking, a DAC just converts raw digital audio to an analog signal, it doesn't interpret file formats or decode/decompress and such. If you're using a NAS as the server for multiple home computers, or if you don't want your computer to have to process an audio stream while you're doing other things with it, the NAS itself (or more accurately, a server program like AudioStation on the Synology, or even XMBC if the NAS supports it) will be your media control device - that's the key point. The computer/tablet/smartphone then communicates with that program to get song listings from it, and send playback commands to it - like a remote control.
If you only have one computer (or you only want to use one computer to play audio etc.), and you don't mind using the computer as the MCD, you don't need the NAS - you'd actually be better off with a simpler setup. After all, NAS boxes aren't much good for playing streams from Bandcamp, Amazon MP3, etc., or audio from webinars and remote meetings (though most can play internet radio now).
You could also use stuff like iTunes Home Sharing, Windows Media Center/Server, and XMBC running on a computer - these are for people who don't mind having a computer that's always (or usually) on, and can act as the controller for other computers in your home network. If you have such a computer lying around doing nothing, or don't mind having your main-axe computer doing all that processing, then you could always go that route - it would be cheaper in the short term. But if not, a separate computer (such as Muggsy's Mac Mini, for example) is going to cost twice as much as an entry-level NAS box+drive(s), and probably use more electricity... and might not last as long either, especially if it's a laptop.
Conversely, if you (1) don't care to use your computer to control playback etc. at all, (2) don't need networking capability for the files (and/or don't have multiple computers/tablets/etc.), and (3) only have one stereo system, then you might as well just get a 160GB iPod Classic and a nice dock with a remote control, right? They have fancy iPod docks with built-in DACs too - I've seen them online and they're not cheap, but I'd assume they sound much better than just plugging your iPod directly into your stereo. The portability advantage alone would make that a better option, if you ask me! So I guess I'm writing all this under the assumption that one of those three conditions doesn't apply.
In effect that is what I have done in our sitting room. I have a Bose set up that doubles for TV and Blu-ray/DVD, and I just plug my ipod in. Excellent sound, better than I actually get elsewhere on other specialist equipment. If I was buying now I'd get a Sonos system that would enable me to use it wirelessly in other rooms.
I understand the points about the iPod. In some ways that's easiest. But I'm up to 50K tracks with more waiting to be ripped from vinyl and therefore my collection is overwhelming to guests and to my wife. I'd like a 'Netflix-like' interface that I can set up for my wife and possibly even for guests so that they can brow Ase only a reduced set of my music.
Additionally, I'm going to rerip all of my music in lossless for home playback. That will probably end up at about 1TB plus my stuff which was originally sourced in MP3. So that's 7 iPods to manage -- not very practical.
As a side note, I see that there are now receivers out there that attempt to restore audio from compressed files. Cool to see since I have long thought something like this would be possible. I found one review that suggests Onkyo receivers can play MP3s at near CD quality. Anybody have a receiver like this and wish to share their experiences?
What are you using to do this?
That was about, oh, 10 or 11 years ago. Shortly after I started doing that, I got divorced - probably because I was irresponsibly spending too much money on worthless techno-toys like DAT recorders, fancy soundcards, and Diamond Cut Pro (thankfully, CD-Wave is a cheap shareware program) instead of home improvements, cat food, and stuff like that. When I got divorced, I moved to another town, and I never bothered to set up all the necessary gear again. Someone gave me one of those inexpensive USB turntables for Christmas a while back, but I never even took it out of the box.
I don't really miss those days, and at least my cat is properly fed now, so it all worked out well in the end I guess.
Ugh. I did the same thing and it's a huge PITA. Worth it, in my opinion, but I've spent an inordinate amount of time and effort over the past 2+ years on this task. I have something like 56,000 music files and at this point 36,000 or so are lossless. Most of the rest were originally downloaded in MP3 format so not much to be done about those. Make sure you have a damn good backup drive, and back it up frequently. My backup drive just failed (still under warranty) and I'm afraid to do anything with my main drive until I get it back. There's no way I would do this again if both drives failed.
I'm currently ripping from cassette (and some vinyl) - I have my stereo hooked into my PC similar to ScissorMan's old set-up and use Audacity to record and split files. I've gotten much faster at splitting files and saving as MP3's. It's a little time consuming, but I've gotten much more adept at using Audacity (free program). It might have helped to read the user's guide, but who's got time for that?
My wife bought me a Bluetooth amazon speaker for Christmas and I really enjoy that too; mostly again I keep the sound low. Nobody likes music quite as much as me in my house.
But with the Bluetooth speaker, I really enjoy my amazon cloud. When I upgraded phones, I kept my old one for an iPod touch. (And I recently dropped it and cracked the glass; but it still works.) So, I can always scroll through the amazon cloud and wifi download anything I feel like.
Wouldn't work for lossless, but is great for a simple speaker turned down low.
I'm currently just playing the files through my computer as a file share with crappy speakers. But I'm looking at the options, too. Plex is working great for video - it runs right on FreeNAS and let's me keep track of what I've watched and where I stopped whether I use it on my tablet, phone, Roku, local computer or remotely over the web. Unfortunately the music interface currently sucks.
So I'll be taking a look at plain XBMC on a Raspberry Pi or possibly Subsonic. At the very least I need better speakers on my computer or a DAC to wire it into my receiver - which is currently just being used for the turntable.
I have a 30GB ipod classic. Unless it goes wrong I cannot get a 180GB new one that would hold so much more of my music collection. I keep on thinking that the battery will eventually die, but it doesn't!
Re listening at home I still have yet to feel the need for a digital hub. Stuff I want to hear a lot at max quality I buy on CD. Where quality is not mission-critical I plug my ipod touch into the stereo. I have apps that will stream from my PC downstairs via my ipad, but I have scarcely used them. I think the main factor is that the time I have to actually sit in front of the good stereo is limited and is usually evenings with my wife, which takes away the need for all the strange corners of my collection to be available. The real collection-spanning listening happens while walking on earphones.
Teac UDH01-S Digital to Analog Converter with USB Audio Interface
Note that it has an iPod dock and also lets you hook up three other input sources, one of which is a USB port, and the others digital-audio cables. So I'd presumably connect the NAS via USB, and if I feel really ambitious I could configure the MacBook Pro's headphone jack as an S/PDIF output for the third source, and use this unit's headphone jack for actual headphones (as the separate headphone volume knob would be super-handy). I don't see how you choose the dock vs. the external inputs, so I assume that connecting an iPod makes that the source automatically... not ideal, but not a dealbreaker either.
Once I figure out if this will play nice with a Synology NAS, I might buy one (or something similar, anyway). But it's $300, which takes it out of the "let's get one and see what happens" impulse-buy category. It might also be better to wait until a unit like this appears that has a remote control.
As for ripping vinyl. I plan to buy a usb turntable. Hopefully there are some niftier tools out there for fingerprinting from an audio source. If not, I will probably put together a little python or php script to auto-tag individual tracks based on artist/album info. It certainly doesn't look as easy as popping a CD in and letting itunes rip and tag it. (Also wondering if Tune Up can do the fingerprinting for me.
I also have sitting around one of those old dual CD recorders made by Philips. I'm not sure what I'll do with it in the long run. I remember it producing pretty good sound back when I used it but I'm wondering if there is some hardware hack published online since the compatible blank discs have long since disappeared. It actually crossed my mind to try to gut it and use it simply for the DAC (which, again, seemed to be pretty decent).
This thread has created more questions than answers but the questions seem to be better and closer to what I'm trying to set up. I did look at Plex as mentioned and perhaps I will just go with the USB enabled DAC until Plex gets a bit better for music.
A frustration that I am having with all of this is that every technology seems to be married to the notion of using some sort of computer or smart phone either as a 'remote control' or to manage the actual stream. Why is it so hard to just have an app or whatever on a Roku that can manage the stream from the storage device. Is this set-up driven by the technical requirements of playing DRMed files?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Nakamichi_RX_505_Front_edited.jpg
That said, using a TV remote to choose which MP3 files on your USB drive to play through your TV speakers is an incredibly frustrating experience when you have more than, say, 200 MP3 files. This is particularly true with something like a Smart TV (another form of computer) that will often insist on reading the entire directory contents of the USB drive, from scratch, every single time you turn it on. With thousands of files, you'd quickly begin to think this is the worst setup imaginable, only it's not - you could have something like this Lepai mini-amp and have no visual interface whatsoever.
Alright, I'm not going to go all audiophile rage here (because I am far from an audiophile), but if you are ripping from vinyl and really care about fidelity do not get one of those usb turntables. I have not heard a single good thing about their quality. And the problem with low quality with turntables is that they will actually damage your source material. I'm not going to recommend that everybody run out and spending thousands of dollars to listen to their vinyl, but for under $400 you can pick up a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon or comparable Music Hall or Rega table. I bought a used NAD receiver off ebay as an inexpensive pre-amp. The connection back into the PC is the next step.
And ScissorMan is absolutely right about the UI parts. Think it's hard to find what you want on Netflix on the Roku? Now imagine trying to flip through a few thousand artists. Or entering their names in without a keyboard. Tablets and phones are perfect devices for controlling massive collections so you can stream from one device to another. Youtube on my Blu-Ray player is nice, but frustrating. Youtube on my Blu-Ray player controlled by my tablet or phone is awesome. Via Chromecast it's even better.
Remote controls are the best things since sliced bread! But that's why I use my iPod, there is no remote control to go through my entire library. I tried putting it through my Tivo setup with surround sound speakers and going through that clunky interface once was enough, thank you. A lag to bring up the playlists, a lag to scroll through them, just soo slow even though our wireless setup is good. I think there was a way to enter characters but it was that fake TV keyboard like gaming stations, where you have to scroll to the letters then press select, blech.
So - if I want something fast on my ipod, I have a special playlist called "!gotta have it' and I just dump whatever songs I want there. The ! makes it stay near the top of iTunes so it's easy to find, and syncing is fast.
I have a couple ipod speaker docks - bedroom, kitchen - but honestly, it's just easier to wear my ipod.
Agree with thom, the USB turntables I looked at, I thought the same thing - they would tear up my records. Presumably you'd only play them once to get the MP3 file, but...once is all it would take.
I've replaced most my vinyl by just buying/hunting down the MP3s. The only things laying around are a few cassette mix tapes that I wouldn't mind having as MP3s. But I still have a Walkman, so if I had to listen to them, I could.
@bramble, I downloaded Audacity a few PCs back and looked at the directions for a few minutes and wandered off. You got further! Well done!
I need to throw all that stuff away.