What kind of jazz listener are you
I got interested in this topic from a number of comments on threads on the other board. Seems that there are a few broad categories that emusic jazz listeners fall into, and I was curious to know how the folks on this board would categorize themselves. From what I have gleaned on the other board, I see at least the following groups (feel free to add your own).
1. My collection only goes to the 70s and I'm content with that.
2. My collection only goes to the 70s but only because I'm not familiar with what came after.
3. The 70s? I'm only interested in contemporary jazz.
4. Just the avant-garde please
5. I only pick up a jazz recording if I hear something I like, otherwise I focus on other music.
6. I'll buy any jazz from any period as long as it is good.
I would put myself in the last group. As I said, I'm sure there are more categories that could be added, but these are the ones I saw on the other board.
Anyone care to classify themselves, and maybe talk about why they feel that way? I'm not looking to start a flame war here, only to get a handle on
how a sampling of posters approach their jazz collections. Seems like there are a lot of "only to the 70s" folks posting over there, which kind of surprised me.
Again, I don't think any one approach is better than the others, I'm just curious as to which of these categories (or any other you may care to add) that you would put yourself into. I don't want to post this over at the other board because I'm not looking for people sniping at each other, just some talk about music.
1. My collection only goes to the 70s and I'm content with that.
2. My collection only goes to the 70s but only because I'm not familiar with what came after.
3. The 70s? I'm only interested in contemporary jazz.
4. Just the avant-garde please
5. I only pick up a jazz recording if I hear something I like, otherwise I focus on other music.
6. I'll buy any jazz from any period as long as it is good.
I would put myself in the last group. As I said, I'm sure there are more categories that could be added, but these are the ones I saw on the other board.
Anyone care to classify themselves, and maybe talk about why they feel that way? I'm not looking to start a flame war here, only to get a handle on
how a sampling of posters approach their jazz collections. Seems like there are a lot of "only to the 70s" folks posting over there, which kind of surprised me.
Again, I don't think any one approach is better than the others, I'm just curious as to which of these categories (or any other you may care to add) that you would put yourself into. I don't want to post this over at the other board because I'm not looking for people sniping at each other, just some talk about music.
Comments
I think it's my ignorance that keeps me from downloading more jazz than I have. The eMusic samples are wanting -- too short. Sometimes if I'm interested in something recommended, I go to Barnes & Noble to get a better sampling of an album.
Glad to see you over here. Talk music all you like!
This idea that people felt they didn't have enough knowledge to download more jazz than they did kept popping up over there too. I don't know the answer to that one, since now it's even harder to experiment and take a chance on something new. I'd love to hear some ideas on how we can overcome that. Jazz recommendation threads are useful, but usually only if you are already really into the music and know the artists. And there are just so many artists to choose from, where do you start if you're new to an era? Aarrgghh, frustrating.
First, I'll say that I'm probably a 5.5. I'll get jazz regardless of era - I think you have to be far more knowledgeable of any genre to have a preference, and I am certainly no jazz aficionado. I'll say that I was pretty excited when other users complimented some of my jazz choices a couple years ago - there will always be a "stigma" that one needs to be "in the know" to enjoy jazz.
Second, I'll say that the jazz recommendation threads were the most useful to me over yonder. Too much of the indie side of things were bands I had already discovered. I started 2 threads myself - one to as a general "where do I start" and the other one regarding the Black Saint/Soul Note catalog. The responses were invaluable to me. Among other suggestions were two albums that have now become favorites of mine - Kenny Burrell and John Coltrane and Billy Harper's Black Saint. Of course they were even easier choices in the pre "album-only days".
I do concur that jazz is a genre that does not lend itself well to quick sampling, which leads to even further intimidation and trepidation.
But it was fun in the end and did get a nice little discussion started that I hope may help someone (I actually got some good recommendations from the thread that I want to check out).
Yes, I stole my screen name from the label, which I have great respect for, and in particular because of my love of Shipp's music - can't agree with you more on the Sorcerers Sessions either. Also glad to see someone admit to liking cool jazz. It took me years to overcome the critical prejudice against that music, but now I'm especially happy with that section of my collection. I could listen to those Shorty Rogers Atlantics all day.
# Thom - Good point about the jazz recommendations threads - when they have a focus - a label or genre, they tend to be very useful. I was thinking more of the rambling, anything goes threads which for me end up being a mind-numbing, endless list that makes my eyes glaze over.
In jazz, people whose steps were always worth following - to me - Pharoah Sanders, Don Cherry. Both crossed lines.
For the above categories, I fit in #6.
As far as those jazz recommendation threads go, let me share my process for whittling them down. I'll go through the thread and immediately listen to a couple song samples for each rec, but only a brief listen. If it sounds like anything I might be interested, I bookmark the musician's myspace page, and then move on to the next rec. At a later time, when I'm doing something else, I'll pull up those myspace pages at my leisure, and then give the musicians a more intensive listen. But that one-two punch, with the quick initial listen and either file away for later or ignore, really helps me get through those threads.
Also, when you have a musician you like, checking out the other musicians on the label is a solid way to investigate jazz. So is checking out the sidemen on their own albums is another successful method. Some, or all, of you likely already do this, but I thought I should throw that out there anyway.
When I first started getting into jazz in the nineties, I got really lucky in that the owner of the music store near my apartment (Jerry's Record Exchange in Denver) really took time to answer my questions, make recommendations, set aside stuff for me that he purchased from someone unloading their music, and just shoot the breeze with me about jazz or whatever. He was, in a way, my jazz mentor, and became someone I consider a friend. Where I'm going with all this is that I consider that jazz mentoring a genuine gift, and I always jump at the opportunity to do the same for others. So please feel free to ask any jazz questions you have, 'cause I'd be happy to answer them. There's a lot of people who know more about jazz than me, but I'm happy to share what I do know, and also look forward to learning more from others. I didn't discover the emu forums until they announced the plan changes, and it was pretty cool reading some of the great contributors to it. I put my account on hold, and I'm gonna leave it that way until all the plan changes shake out, and maybe emusic tweaks things a bit after they see the fallout from the changes. I'm sad to think that I likely won't be able to keep my emusic account, but I also was a bit down to think that I wouldn't be able to participate on the emu forum anymore either. Discovering this site takes that problem away for me. My sincere thanks to everyone involved with creating this forum. I'm real happy to be here. Cheers!
The owner was Jerry Gordon, who went on to found Evidence Records. His right hand man was Russ Musto, who later moved to New York and was very involved in producing shows and doing reviews. John DiLiberto, who became a music writer and radio producer, also worked there. Francis Davis, now a very well known jazz critic and liner note writer, was a regular customer. I used to live in that store, soaking up all the knowledge these guys have. Russ's house not only contained the finest jazz collection I have ever seen, but you never knew who you'd run into to when you were there, as Russ provided a place for musicians in town to crash (I remember John Hicks walking down the steps in his underwear late one morning looking for breakfast). John DiLiberto was so far ahead of the curve on new styles of jazz that were emerging that it took me years to catch up with him (John also had a show on WXPN radio). Francis and I both also worked at record stores at various times but I still spent too much time and money at Third Street, hanging out, talking, getting recommendations. Needless to say, it was I who benefited from all this, they were the masters. I guess message boards like this are all we have left that compares to that. It was a living, breathing jazz university.
5. I only pick up a jazz recording if I hear something I like, otherwise I focus on other music.
6. I'll buy any jazz from any period as long as it is good.
I didn't really have much until I started an eMu subscription, which made it more affordable. Somebody posted a list of the 100 greatest jazz albums and I started looking there. Up until then it was mostly Claude Bolling (not this emu knockoff, but the actual CD), Thelonius Monk, Stanley Clarke & Herbie Hancock. Too bad most of my faves are on cassette. That was what I was buying mid-80s, because it was the most portable back then.
What's with the 70s cutoff, though?
This.
both of you make great point about the context i which one comes to the music. I didn't start listening to or buying jazz until 1990, when I was an associate manager at a record store in LA. Fairly knowledgeable about classical, I knew nothing of jazz, and I just picked up things I thought might be interesting. My discount allowed me to get a lot, but at the time, many old albums were not available on CD, and many were poorly mastered (I remember I thought "Armstrong plays WC Handy was unlistenable). I still came away with a lot of Fantasy, Prestige and ECM, nonetheless.
The second surge came around 2000. I started going to shows at the Unitarian Meeting House in Amherst. These were live recording sessions for Eremite. The shows themselves generally resembled the NY loft scene, but the musicians who came were experimenting far beyond free jazz--Roy Campbell, Jemeel Moondoc, William Parker, Joe Fonda, Joe McPhee, Glenn Spearman, etc. It sent me in many directions, reading up on all styles.
Unlike you, I never had a mentor. I worked my way from what I liked in all directions.
Mostly, like Katrina, a combination of categories 5 & 6.
Most of what I have was inspired by other bands 'borrowing' things (I'm looking at you Steely Dan) or TV/Movie soundtracks or working with people who played certain stuff a lot.
Generally I don't go for the more avant garde things, or too much of the 'smooth' or fusion style stuff.
And some of the accepted 'genius' artists I find completely impossible to get into (eg Miles Davis).
i also have a real affinity for nels cline + bill frisell.
parker, mingus, coltrane + chet baker are also in my collection...i only have a small amount of miles - which is odd because what i've heard i like.
overall, i do not listen to jazz anywhere near the amount i listen to japanese noise, drone or world.
i wonder how madhatter scores + elwoodicious could write an epic on pre-70s jazz. lure him in here!
@thirstyear - Too bad I missed out on Third Street back in the day. I hadn't broken into jazz at all yet. Well, I did used to go swing dancing at the 5 Spot...
I worked in retail records at the time and remember it very well Record companies placed a lot of pressure on jazz acts to sell records in the quantities that rock acts were selling. Young fans were ignoring jazz and focused on rock. Bitches Brew was Miles response, and it had a huge impact. Many, many jazz musicians began using electric instruments and playing with a rock beat. Lots of jazz fans felt these musicians had "sold out', and even musicians who still played non-fusion were forced to make concessions - thus you have Cedar Walton and Tommy Flanagan playing electric piano on records from the 70's.
At the same time the jazz club scene was dying. Many musicians like Dexter Gordon, Johnny Griffin, Kenny Drew, left for Europe. The ones who stayed behind had a hard time getting gigs (I remember seeing the great bop pianist Barry Harris at a sparsely attended show at the time bitterly complaining about all of this). So the young musicians coming up had mainly fusion as a guide and that's what they played. It seemed for a while that the fusion tide was irresistible.
A large number of Jazz fans, many who had also been turned off by the avant-garde of the sixties, just stopped following the music. There were articles that "jazz" was dead, and many people really believed that. Then you had people like Wynton Marsalis come along and try to make jazz into a repertory music, and with his allies preach that basically only pre-70's based styles were real jazz. Eventually fusion died back, the avant-garde evolved, Dexter made a triumphant return from Europe (along with others) and the club scene improved. A whole new generation of acoustic players emerged, but jazz was splintered into many camps and many fans never returned.
xtrev, it's interesting that you don't get into Davis; I'm tempted to ask 'which one?', as he had several changes of style. But I think he was always aiming to make his music popular.
You're right. The very best way to learn about jazz is to attend live shows. There isn't any substitute for that.
But if you can't get to live shows, a mentor is very nice, and the combination is even better.
Used to work in record shops and heard/tried quite a bit over the years.
I've got Sketches of Spain on CD somewhere and bits of that are OK, but there's enough I'm not keen on for it to have not been a regular listen.
Just one of those artists that don't 'speak' to me I guess.
I'm creeping myself out with some of these posts.
rock, blues, folk, reggae - no classical, no indie). I'm the kind of jazz fan that when a new jazz label is added I do a label search and go through every single listing (listening to about half of them) to make sure I'm not missing anything interesting. NEXT QUESTION: Any classical or indie or whatever fans do this with new labels? Anyone else out there as obsessive in a different genre? I guess now what I'm asking is not "what kind of jazz fan are you" but "what kind of whatever fan are you"?
The more jazz I hear, the more I enjoy. For years I listened to WDCB here in Chicago...public radio jazz all day, very mainstream. But that opened the door, made me familiar with the names, and of course once you get into that guy who played with this guy on that classic album, and they went on to record this...you are hooked. I absolutely enjoy the avant garde and modern stuff, but I don't know much about it. That's why I like the reccs on the emu board, and try to DL something new or newish at least once in a while.
So...my answer to the original question is, I am working my way through the 70s, up to the present day! But I like almost all of it, would like to learn more about the new stuff coming out. I'm going to keep an ear open for that NPR jazz show...the main NPR outlet in town used to play Jazz and Blues all night, but that went away a couple of years ago.
Nice links -- best jazz CDs and stations that carry the show, including those that stream it.
# choiceweb0pen0 - Love your Smooth Jazz warning idea. How's this: WARNING: Aesthetically sensitive individuals may experience uncontrollable rage when exposed to contents. Guess my prejudices are showing.
# jonahpwll - You sound like a solid #6 to me. I'm curious. Did you start with the older stuff and move to the contemporary scene, or vice versa? Or did you encounter both at once? Also, who else would you include in the Nu-Jazz category? Thanks.
(Not really - thanks to you & Tim Mason for the info on the great schism in the church of jazz. Since I was not around to note great split, I really don't see the fuss...but I can definitely understand it.)