Okay. I'm putting this here due to the hip hop discussion. I am starting my hip hop series on MiG, and have drafted the below as more or less my thesis. Can people give me their opinions? I don't want to come off as defensive or as though am faulting people for not being hip hop fans, but I do want to get the attention of non hip hop fans in an effort to convert them. Thoughts?
Some facts about me: I'm white (a full fledged WASP actually); I'm middle class; I'm in my 30s; I'm a father; I live in the midwest; and I love hip hop. It's that last one that surprises people. Due to the first five things listed I'm not supposed to like hip hop, even though I'm a huge music fan. Nonetheless, whether it's Golden Era East Coast, hardcore West Coast, southern, indie, or otherwise, if it falls under the hip hop umbrella there's a good chance I listen to it.
The simple reason people are surprised by my hip hop fandom is it's not 'my' music. Hip hop, rose from the streets to tell the stories of the street. Meanwhile, I'm about as 'street' as a labradoodle, and can't pretend to relate to hip hop's stories through personal experience. Those stories are largely made up of hustling, gang banging, and the like and involve violence, drug use or dealing, misogyny, and other things utterly alien to my suburban, midwestern upbringing. The problem with the assumption that I wouldn't be a hip hop fan, though, is the underlying presumption that just because I haven't personally experienced these things I have no interest in the art that is being created as a result. Good art should challenge its audience in some way and hip hop does so by confronting its listeners with hard truths.
This challenging of the audience is why it is hard for me to hear other music fans say something along the lines of, "I like all types of music...except hip hop." All music fans have certain genres or artists they don't connect with (art is highly subjective after all), but more often than not the dislike of hip hop is based on an explanation that hip hop glorifies violence, contains excessive foul language, or treats women quite poorly in many songs. Admittedly, there are many things about these parts of hip hop that are off putting or even downright horrifying, but the art wouldn't be honest without including those aspects of the lives of the artists or their friends/family. Put simply, you can't tell the story of the street without using the language of the street. Plus, a close reading of many hip hop lyrics will demonstrate the violence, language, et al., are not in any way glorified, but rather demonstrative of a tragedy at the center of a story.
"So You Don't Like Hip Hop" is my way of helping music fans navigate the world of hip hop to find that one song that cuts through the noise and speaks directly to them. I truly believe that once an entry point to the genre is found, music fans can follow their song down the rabbit hole of hip hop and emerge on the other side saying "I like all types of music." Up first we'll look at hip hop's earliest ground breakers.
In honor of the challenging aspect of hip hop, I'm currently listening to one of the albums that challenges me most directly:
The cover photo is taken in an actual hospital where Bushwick Bill was recuperating after being shot (he lost an eye).
Craig: are you trying to legitimize "street music?" Perhaps you could remind readers that others have assumed that some truths could only be received by paying attention to those on the margins: Alan Lomax and Martin Carthy, not to mention scholars like Eric Hobsbawm and Robert Darnton.
It's much broader than that. It's more about overcoming the common writing off of hip hop without really giving it a chance. My goal is to narrow the field down to a handful of tracks each time in order to aid folks in finding an entry point that works for them.
Craig, do you get the New Yorker? There is a (paywalled) Sasha Frere-Jones column this week on a rapper that seems to touch on this territory. Actually, his take is that the rapper is playing a part that is emphatically *not* real - he likens it to Bruce Willis in a Die Hard movie. Sounds kind of apologetic to me, personally.
As a writer I think your intro looks good...though personally I'm too far gone as far as hip-hop is concerned. Frankly, I live in a city that's absolutely plagued by gang violence, and hear kids in the neighborhood happily calling each other nigger. Not that I imagine hip-hop invented the problems on the street, but I do think the culture/industry that has grown up around the "product" is hurting, not helping.
By the way, though I can't pretend to be a fan, there are things about the music itself that I admire and respect. I especially like the fact that it is the ultimate "DIY" music - kind of punk! But when I see kids wearing T-shirts of a saintly Tupac flashing gang signs, or that awful picture you posted above, I'm out.
@Craig, I'm glad you're having a go at this and look forward to reading it. I've learned some things from the discussion already.
it is hard for me to hear other music fans say something along the lines of, "I like all types of music...except hip hop."
This made me think how annoying I must be to country fans, given how I would complete that sentence :-).
Good art should challenge its audience in some way and hip hop does so by confronting its listeners with hard truths.
Put simply, you can't tell the story of the street without using the language of the street. Plus, a close reading of many hip hop lyrics will demonstrate the violence, language, et al., are not in any way glorified, but rather demonstrative of a tragedy at the center of a story.
I don't want to heap expectations on you and want to hear what you think regardless, but it's exactly that last point that grabs my interest, and it's there where I'd love to make some headway teasing out the differences. This whole thing raises a lot of questions (real questions I don't know the answer to, not reasons-to-avoid-the-genre posed as questions) for me like:
- how is the difference between glorification and what one might call tragic narrative discerned when combined with braggadocio? Can you help me hear the difference, with my cloth ears? Is this an apologia for the genre no questions asked or can I learn more about how to separate the insightful from the actually sordid? Is there hip hop music for which the defense of honesty doesn't work? If so why?
- Is the question of whether certain things are glorified entirely under the artist's control when the messages received by music are conditioned not only by artist intent but (among other things) by the media scene into which the work is inserted, the existing cultural narratives, and the location of the listener? (I take you to be a responsible listener who is listening for "hard truths" rather than likely to imitate the moves in the narrative and leave for work with an AK).
- At what point does telling it like it is become not enough, needing to be combined with a moment of "but it's not the way it's supposed to be and it could be different"? How does telling it like it is avoid ending up as acquiescence to it staying that way? At want point is using certain hip hop to amp yourself up with a sense of toughness so you can bear to be amidst all the toughness a form of capitulation or perpetuation of the problem? (see Doofy's comments)
- How should we think about music culture exploitation of (black) violence and suffering for mainstream culture titillation? Does any of the work get falsified by chart success in that sense? What about the challenge to the listener to, for want of a better term, listen ethically and respond to the tragedy rather than go "wow, he's badass [chortle]".
( I think about the soul searching German poets had to go through after WW2 - what are the ethics of making a living writing poems about other people dying in gas chambers? Of course many profound poets found good answers to this and wrote harrowing work with hard truths.)
- What could the constructive roles of the hard truths be in getting the wider society to rethink e.g. gun violence (as in the article about the Kendrick Lamar album linked earlier today)? Which hip hop seems capable of doing this?
- Does the gritty street part of hip hop on which you focus obscure other strands that also deserve some attention, like the sheer reveling in the sinuous possibilities of language (I think of Gift of Gab's 'Alphabet Aerobics', for instance - funny, throwaway, not a gun in sight, but impressive in its own way). That's one thing that really draws me to (some) hip hop - the linguistic craftsmanship and dexterity that leaves a lot of other genres - especially much pop - in the dust. It occurred to me the other day that on this score I like early Dylan and (some) hip hop for exactly the same reason. Or the sci fi themes? Is your defense of gritty hip hop painting hip hop a little too narrow, or do you want to make clear that is the variety you are writing about? Or perhaps put another way, is it worth saying not only that the violence etc might be worth listening past/listening to, but also that it's a stereotype that all hip hop is about this? [Obvious disclaimer: I have very limited grasp of the overall genre/subgenres)
You won't be able to answer all of those questions in the blog piece(s), and I don't expect you to, this is not a shopping list; I'm just hoping it might be some help to hear the questions going on in my head as I read your draft above. Thanks for doing this, I'm looking forward to reading it.
ETA: lol, tl;dnr version: You're making me think. Keep going.
I've written too much for the medium already, for which apologies, but one more:
you can't tell the story of the street without using the language of the street.
This argument put that baldly doesn't convince me. It's a strategic choice for a certain kind of representation - one way of talking about the street. But it's never been artistically the case that the only way to insightfully represent some reality is to adopt its patois or be strictly mimetic. Was "The Message" (the first hip hop record that impacted my awareness way back) telling the story of the street? (Not saying all records have to use the same strategies as The Message, just that your argument may not hold as stated.)
Whoa. tl;dr indeed! I'm heading out to an event (Chamber of Commerce Winter Gala, I know you're all insanely jealous), but will give a good read and as good of a response as I can make to all this tomorrow.
Yep, this is fun. Here comes the real test: whether or not it keeps my attention after repeat listenings (where most Hip Hop fails for me).
@Craig: I'm sure that I could find Hip Hop that I like, but there are things about the genre in general that frustrates me:
1. Lack of variation of musical performance over the course of a track.
2. Overproduction and the sense that tracks are produced for clubs rather than for intimate listening.
3. Testosterone-driven delivery and subject matter.
4. The narratives of life at the margins are not easily dissociated from the performer (focused on the specific experiences of the individual).
5. Related to #1 and #2: those fucking drum machines. I streamed and sample a lot of tracks last night, and I felt in almost all cases I would enjoy every songs immensely more if the drum sounds were dialed back (if not eliminated entirely).
I think my chief attraction to hip-hop is its fairly distinct musical investigation of vocal rhythm and vocal sonority. Sounds still dominate over lyrical content (as in pretty much any music) for me.
An unmentioned uber-favorite of mine: The Coup's Steal This Album. Chock full of stories, no braggadocio. (Here's an example where I pay plenty of attention to the lyrical content.)
its fairly distinct musical investigation of vocal rhythm and vocal sonority. Sounds still dominate over lyrical content (as in pretty much any music) for me]
That's true for me too. Though lyrical content can attract me/put me off too, and I also like it when the wordsmithing is impressive too. And I especially like it when the vocal rhythms are played off against more complex musical rhythms in virtuoso ways (Wo komm' ich her by Xavier Naidoo srpings to mind)- it loses me quickly if the background rhythm is a plodding thump.
ETA: can't find some of the best naidoo rap tracks on youtube, but this one at 1:46 is a decent example of what I admire in his best tracks (though the rap vocal is not naidoo on this one, Naidoo is the other vocal) - complex rhythmic effects between voice and backing, and a virtuoso speech stream that is also highly articulate, coherent, and literate social commentary, and in German, which one might not have imagined lending itself to this kind of thing.
Jim James - Regions Of Light And Sound Of God. Got the vinyl in the mail yesterday, have enjoyed a could of spins through the album now. It has the same sort of vibe as the Monsters of Folk collaboration.
Okay, my attempt to answer the excellent questions posed. I want to be clear that I'm far from an expert, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.
Doofy:
I hope you'll still give a listen to the tracks I post in the series, as I explain below there will be a lot (if not most) that is not violence based. Your view of hip hop is exactly why I'm going to do the series: My goal is to show that you actually aren't too far gone.
GP:
1) There is most certainly hip hop that is glorification of lifestyle and the defense of honesty doesn't work (the reason for this is money). Take Rick Ross for example. He is a former prison corrections officer who has coopted the stories of the inmates he knew (even to the point of his name) and created a "street" back story for himself to sell records. It was a number of years before anyone knew his true story. Unfortunately, the only real way to tell the difference between that which actually glorifies the violence and that which does not is a close listen to the lyrics. The good stuff that doesn't glorify the violence etc tells the full story, which includes the negative results of a life in The Game (to use the language of The Wire). Unfortunately, it isn't always explicit and even when it is, the slang can be a barrier. Rap Genius can be a useful resource in that it has annotated lyrics to most rap songs, but you need to deal with the site the same way you would Wikipedia. There is a good chance it is accurate, but there are issues with accuracy.
2) The audience can very much take the message the wrong way if they aren't listening closely (or even if they are), but in my opinion that doesn't lessen the need for the stories to be told. I truly believe it is vital that these stories reach the ears of people like myself so we know what is really going in Compton, Bed-Stuy, etc. Otherwise it's out of sight, out of mind. Plus, I don't believe that anyone who would leave for work with an AK wouldn't have done so if they hadn't heard an N.W.A. song. That's a mental health issue that is going to raise its head regardless of music, movies, video games, etc.
3) There is a lot of "but it should be different". Admittedly not as much as there probably should be, but a fair number of narrators get their comeuppance.
4) I don't know that I can answer this for everyone, but for me the preservation of the story is more important than the negative effects it can have. Too often in history oppressed peoples' stories have been lost for lack of documentation. Hip hop is keeping the stories of the inner city alive.
5) I think hip hop can have a lot of power to cause change in how we deal with things like gun violence, poverty, the war on drugs, etc. It goes back to my answer to #2. As a white male attorney people listen to me. For better or worse I have more of a say in the world around me than a black man living in North Minneapolis, so the more people like me who pay attention, the better the odds that something will at least be attempted to fix it (obviously these are huge issues that may not even have an answer, but not trying isn't really an option as far as I'm concerned).
6) My focus in the intro on gritty hip hop is purely because that's what people identify as hip hop. The comments have made it clear to me that I need to do a better job of clarifying that this series is going to show the depth and breadth of hip hop. Most of what I post in the series will not be hardcore. In fact the stuff I'm planning to put in the initial post is anything but hardcore (Sugarhill Gang, Afrika Bambaataa, Grandmaster Flash, etc.).
BT:
I think what you're getting at is simply the subjectivity of art I briefly mention, but I also think there will be things I post that will avoid the issues you list. There will be live band hip hop (e.g. The Roots as amclark2 mentioned) there will be female hip hop, etc. Obviously this is planned to be a long term project.
I think that hits the stuff above, if not let me know. I'm glad this is generating such considered responses from you guys, and I really appreciate it.
Oh, and since this is the What are you listening to thread:
Ha ha, strikes me as very emusers that you would post that album at the end of that post. Thanks for the expansions on your original points - they help.
One point I am still not sure about in this and an earlier comment you made is whether the money motive and honesty are enough as criteria for distinguishing good from bad. I think there are other aspects of stance towards the things sung about that have to come in at some point too, though I could not articulate right now what they would need to be. But I'm glad it's not going to be a generic defense.
Comments
G.
In honor of the challenging aspect of hip hop, I'm currently listening to one of the albums that challenges me most directly:
The cover photo is taken in an actual hospital where Bushwick Bill was recuperating after being shot (he lost an eye).
Craig
Craig
As a writer I think your intro looks good...though personally I'm too far gone as far as hip-hop is concerned. Frankly, I live in a city that's absolutely plagued by gang violence, and hear kids in the neighborhood happily calling each other nigger. Not that I imagine hip-hop invented the problems on the street, but I do think the culture/industry that has grown up around the "product" is hurting, not helping.
By the way, though I can't pretend to be a fan, there are things about the music itself that I admire and respect. I especially like the fact that it is the ultimate "DIY" music - kind of punk! But when I see kids wearing T-shirts of a saintly Tupac flashing gang signs, or that awful picture you posted above, I'm out.
Challenging myself. Gu!
Gu!
- how is the difference between glorification and what one might call tragic narrative discerned when combined with braggadocio? Can you help me hear the difference, with my cloth ears? Is this an apologia for the genre no questions asked or can I learn more about how to separate the insightful from the actually sordid? Is there hip hop music for which the defense of honesty doesn't work? If so why?
- Is the question of whether certain things are glorified entirely under the artist's control when the messages received by music are conditioned not only by artist intent but (among other things) by the media scene into which the work is inserted, the existing cultural narratives, and the location of the listener? (I take you to be a responsible listener who is listening for "hard truths" rather than likely to imitate the moves in the narrative and leave for work with an AK).
- At what point does telling it like it is become not enough, needing to be combined with a moment of "but it's not the way it's supposed to be and it could be different"? How does telling it like it is avoid ending up as acquiescence to it staying that way? At want point is using certain hip hop to amp yourself up with a sense of toughness so you can bear to be amidst all the toughness a form of capitulation or perpetuation of the problem? (see Doofy's comments)
- How should we think about music culture exploitation of (black) violence and suffering for mainstream culture titillation? Does any of the work get falsified by chart success in that sense? What about the challenge to the listener to, for want of a better term, listen ethically and respond to the tragedy rather than go "wow, he's badass [chortle]".
( I think about the soul searching German poets had to go through after WW2 - what are the ethics of making a living writing poems about other people dying in gas chambers? Of course many profound poets found good answers to this and wrote harrowing work with hard truths.)
- What could the constructive roles of the hard truths be in getting the wider society to rethink e.g. gun violence (as in the article about the Kendrick Lamar album linked earlier today)? Which hip hop seems capable of doing this?
- Does the gritty street part of hip hop on which you focus obscure other strands that also deserve some attention, like the sheer reveling in the sinuous possibilities of language (I think of Gift of Gab's 'Alphabet Aerobics', for instance - funny, throwaway, not a gun in sight, but impressive in its own way). That's one thing that really draws me to (some) hip hop - the linguistic craftsmanship and dexterity that leaves a lot of other genres - especially much pop - in the dust. It occurred to me the other day that on this score I like early Dylan and (some) hip hop for exactly the same reason. Or the sci fi themes? Is your defense of gritty hip hop painting hip hop a little too narrow, or do you want to make clear that is the variety you are writing about? Or perhaps put another way, is it worth saying not only that the violence etc might be worth listening past/listening to, but also that it's a stereotype that all hip hop is about this? [Obvious disclaimer: I have very limited grasp of the overall genre/subgenres)
You won't be able to answer all of those questions in the blog piece(s), and I don't expect you to, this is not a shopping list; I'm just hoping it might be some help to hear the questions going on in my head as I read your draft above. Thanks for doing this, I'm looking forward to reading it.
ETA: lol, tl;dnr version: You're making me think. Keep going.
Craig
http://www.univers-zero.com/
More testing myself.
http://www.univers-zero.com/
Yep, this is fun. Here comes the real test: whether or not it keeps my attention after repeat listenings (where most Hip Hop fails for me).
@Craig: I'm sure that I could find Hip Hop that I like, but there are things about the genre in general that frustrates me:
1. Lack of variation of musical performance over the course of a track.
2. Overproduction and the sense that tracks are produced for clubs rather than for intimate listening.
3. Testosterone-driven delivery and subject matter.
4. The narratives of life at the margins are not easily dissociated from the performer (focused on the specific experiences of the individual).
5. Related to #1 and #2: those fucking drum machines. I streamed and sample a lot of tracks last night, and I felt in almost all cases I would enjoy every songs immensely more if the drum sounds were dialed back (if not eliminated entirely).
An unmentioned uber-favorite of mine: The Coup's Steal This Album. Chock full of stories, no braggadocio. (Here's an example where I pay plenty of attention to the lyrical content.)
"Me and Jesus the Pimp in a '79 Granada Last Night"
ETA: can't find some of the best naidoo rap tracks on youtube, but this one at 1:46 is a decent example of what I admire in his best tracks (though the rap vocal is not naidoo on this one, Naidoo is the other vocal) - complex rhythmic effects between voice and backing, and a virtuoso speech stream that is also highly articulate, coherent, and literate social commentary, and in German, which one might not have imagined lending itself to this kind of thing.
Jim James - Regions Of Light And Sound Of God. Got the vinyl in the mail yesterday, have enjoyed a could of spins through the album now. It has the same sort of vibe as the Monsters of Folk collaboration.
G.
Doofy:
I hope you'll still give a listen to the tracks I post in the series, as I explain below there will be a lot (if not most) that is not violence based. Your view of hip hop is exactly why I'm going to do the series: My goal is to show that you actually aren't too far gone.
GP:
1) There is most certainly hip hop that is glorification of lifestyle and the defense of honesty doesn't work (the reason for this is money). Take Rick Ross for example. He is a former prison corrections officer who has coopted the stories of the inmates he knew (even to the point of his name) and created a "street" back story for himself to sell records. It was a number of years before anyone knew his true story. Unfortunately, the only real way to tell the difference between that which actually glorifies the violence and that which does not is a close listen to the lyrics. The good stuff that doesn't glorify the violence etc tells the full story, which includes the negative results of a life in The Game (to use the language of The Wire). Unfortunately, it isn't always explicit and even when it is, the slang can be a barrier. Rap Genius can be a useful resource in that it has annotated lyrics to most rap songs, but you need to deal with the site the same way you would Wikipedia. There is a good chance it is accurate, but there are issues with accuracy.
2) The audience can very much take the message the wrong way if they aren't listening closely (or even if they are), but in my opinion that doesn't lessen the need for the stories to be told. I truly believe it is vital that these stories reach the ears of people like myself so we know what is really going in Compton, Bed-Stuy, etc. Otherwise it's out of sight, out of mind. Plus, I don't believe that anyone who would leave for work with an AK wouldn't have done so if they hadn't heard an N.W.A. song. That's a mental health issue that is going to raise its head regardless of music, movies, video games, etc.
3) There is a lot of "but it should be different". Admittedly not as much as there probably should be, but a fair number of narrators get their comeuppance.
4) I don't know that I can answer this for everyone, but for me the preservation of the story is more important than the negative effects it can have. Too often in history oppressed peoples' stories have been lost for lack of documentation. Hip hop is keeping the stories of the inner city alive.
5) I think hip hop can have a lot of power to cause change in how we deal with things like gun violence, poverty, the war on drugs, etc. It goes back to my answer to #2. As a white male attorney people listen to me. For better or worse I have more of a say in the world around me than a black man living in North Minneapolis, so the more people like me who pay attention, the better the odds that something will at least be attempted to fix it (obviously these are huge issues that may not even have an answer, but not trying isn't really an option as far as I'm concerned).
6) My focus in the intro on gritty hip hop is purely because that's what people identify as hip hop. The comments have made it clear to me that I need to do a better job of clarifying that this series is going to show the depth and breadth of hip hop. Most of what I post in the series will not be hardcore. In fact the stuff I'm planning to put in the initial post is anything but hardcore (Sugarhill Gang, Afrika Bambaataa, Grandmaster Flash, etc.).
BT:
I think what you're getting at is simply the subjectivity of art I briefly mention, but I also think there will be things I post that will avoid the issues you list. There will be live band hip hop (e.g. The Roots as amclark2 mentioned) there will be female hip hop, etc. Obviously this is planned to be a long term project.
I think that hits the stuff above, if not let me know. I'm glad this is generating such considered responses from you guys, and I really appreciate it.
Oh, and since this is the What are you listening to thread:
Craig
One point I am still not sure about in this and an earlier comment you made is whether the money motive and honesty are enough as criteria for distinguishing good from bad. I think there are other aspects of stance towards the things sung about that have to come in at some point too, though I could not articulate right now what they would need to be. But I'm glad it's not going to be a generic defense.
http://www.univers-zero.com/
- Excellent stuff. - coming on music 18.02.13
ETA: sold. . . . the title track is gorgeous.
More testing ...
Gu!