I for one found the divine intervention ending major horseshit (though it was already increasingly becoming shitty in that direction in the last two seasons - the writing was on the wall with all the increasingly implausible prophecy-fulfillment bullshit), one that deeply cheapened and distracted from the greatest aspects of the series: its investigation of complicated political/cultural/religious issues in a society under stress.
(I don't have anything against stories with divine themes: I'm a big fan of films like Frailty, Signs, and The Rapture, but those films used their divine endings to ignite what happened earlier, not render it inert.)
Oh god don't get me started on the ending of BSG. Haaaaaaaaate with the fire of a thousand suns. There is a CSI episode which has a Ron Moore-esque producer who is revamping a beloved sf show getting beaten to death and I found that very satisfying to watch over and over again in flashbacks. ;-D (the ep features some BSG actor cameos and is actually very funny and well done.)
ETA: Having said that when I recently saw the final episode of "Enterprise" I had a new most hated tv show finale. BSG is now number 2.
NankerP, I didn't watch Enterprise much at all (and I consider myself a Trek fan - tho Voyager permanently(?) shed its sheen), but are you just complaining about the kitschy bookend with Riker and Troi? Isn't that rather innocuous compared to an ending that essentially sublimates an entire show's highlights?
You say kitschy I say repeatedly smashing the fans through the face with a poisoned morningstar. Whatever my hatred of where BSG went, I didn't feel it was like a deliberate insult, which Enterprise really felt like to me. What Bad Thoughts said.
I hated the last season of BSG, though I'd really have to watch it again to remember why specifically. It wasn't the religious/divine intervention focus so much (IIRC), but that the writing got hammy and the plot derivative. The Starbuck character was stripped of everything that made her compelling. The inability of the "hidden cylons" to act their way out of a chrome plated bag. Too damn many ghosts and images presented to too damn many characters (I don't mind a few, but when Starbuck played piano with her father's ghost, well, that was def one too many). I dunno. There was probably a lot more things I hated. OH! Yeah, that stupid version of All Along The Watchtower. That stupid final scene of Baltar and the Blonde walking through the city.
Hey, I might have a post up-thread from when I first finished the series. Lemme see if I can find it.
I didn't mind that they found an earth like planet. But what did bother me (It's all coming back to me now!) was that they avoided the delicious complications of how they'd be received in, say, our/today's society if humans and cylons came down from outer space. Would we accept them, blast them away, would they try to come here secretly and avoid detection? Would they send an envoy to a world leader and try to negotiate their way onto Earth? So many societal and political ramifications/scenarios that had me sooooo ready for the final season, and the writers just said screw it, we're gonna land them on the planet before humans ever really develop, and now everybody is descended from cylons... isn't that cool? Well, no, not really. That would've been cool to learn that the descendants of planet Caprica were that way, and that all along the humans and cylons are basically the same people and fighting a war, not against each other, but, ultimately, against themselves. That would've been cool. For instance, I liked that the 13th colony ("Earth") was, actually, a cylon colony. That was cool. But it would've been much cooler if the writers hadn't said, yeah, cylon colony, BUT, everybody's dead. Lame.
Rant away. I'm enjoying this. While I liked the finale itself (except for the Starbuck thing), I hated the Final Five, the dead 13th Colony (not worth divine intervention, I guess), the fact that Gaeta became BOTH gay and evil, the Starbuck-Apollo hate-mance, the hours spent on drunk people in bathtubs, etc. I really hated that the entirety of Tyrol's biography had to be rewritten, that his son wasn't his own, and that he lost his status as defender of the common man. However, I liked the civil war. I consider it a crude necessity of drama that Cavil's Cylons would perish.
they avoided the delicious complications of how they'd be received in, say, our/today's society if humans and cylons came down from outer space.
During an abortive attempt to revivify the original series back in the day, that's exactly what happened, with unmemorable results.
It wasn't the religious/divine intervention focus so much (IIRC), but that the writing got hammy and the plot derivative.
That. Not necessarily the 'ending' per se, but they were so flailing about in the last season or two that I lost confidence. A major reason being Starbuck's death/resurrection - Outside of soap operas and comic books, that trick has only been successfully pulled off once in the history of literature!
I think I had less of a problem with the ending of BSG because I watched it all after the fact. I had heard all the hype and then all the wailing and gnashing of teeth after the finale and then decided, you know what? I'm going to watch it anyway. I think if you told me after the first season or so that's how it was going to end, I probably would have been disappointed. But after the shift in the show over the subsequent seasons it really worked for me.
As for Enterprise, the only thing worthwhile about that show was Dr. Phlox and The Andorian Incident. The other day I stumbled upon "Sins of the Father" from The Next Generation and was reminded how great that show was once they really found their footing.
TNG seasons 3-5 were pretty great. The first great episode was "The Survivors" - what an ending! But boy did we have to grin and bear it through the first two seasons. DS9 had a very good run too, the good ones are highly rewatchable. VOY onwards fell into a permanent story-telling rut, afaic. Stupid Brannon Braga. My friends use the term "braga" as a euphemism for a big BM.
@Doofy: I assume you mean bringing back Spock in Star Trek III?
No, that other guy. Name escapes me at the moment.
I'd forgotten all about Spock! Well, now they've pulled off an even harder trick, making him younger and studlier, along with the rest of the original crew. (Except Kirk, of course...how could you possibly get any studlier than Shatner?)
@karg - Funny, I was thinking the same thing (3-5 were the peak, starting with "The Survivors"). But I will at least defend the first 2 seasons as having some solid episodes that introduced great characters (Q, the Traveller, the Borg, etc.). But the various Klingon and Romulon story arcs were the best. Most of the really good later episodes were setting up for DS9, a show that probably ended on the strongest note of them all.
I didn't begin watching Star Trek TNG until something like the last couple episodes of the final season. I think the series finale "All Good Things..." was maybe the third episode I'd seen. I really enjoyed it. I then went back and, over time and slowly, watched all the others. I agree that those early ones were a bit too much like the original, but once they found their characters and the writers grabbed ahold of them (and I do think it was more of the actors finally buying into their characters as having depth), TNG really got pretty good.
I still the final TNG episode is a great example of how to send a series out on a high note.
Enterprise wasn't great but I liked it well enough. Dr Phlox was my favourite too. I put off watching it because I was so appalled at the theme song, so only watched it all over christmas. And just back to the finale, Riker and Troi weren't just a cute cameo, they were the main characters of the episode, and the Enterprise characters were recreated in their holodeck simulation so they weren't even real! Do not know in what universe that is a proper send off for a show.
In spite of the finale, the last season of Enterprise was fairly strong, because it was much more political. The Soong, Vulcan and Terra Prime arcs were excellent. The overall quality of the series was poor, but much of that was the miserable third season.
Seasons 3-5 of TNG were the best Trek, full stop! Even the sentimentality of The Offspring, Family and Inner Light will set me weeping. However, 6 and 7 still produced excellent episodes: Chains of Command, Tapestry, Lower Decks and All Good Things were excellent.
For complexity and narrative, DS9 was the best series, IMO. Voyager, yawn. Relaunch? Lobotomized the franchise.
I'm watching the Firefly marathon on Science: I'm no Whedon fan, but I'm giving the show a shot.
Unfortunately, it does something that annoys me a lot: it presents "strong women" who are really weak, hysterical women, whose strength can only be understood by appreciating a complicated back story, complicated fictional technologies, or complicated alternative realities.
We've enjoyed Ripper Street. I think it was the last episode here last night, but we are still to watch it. After a slow start it has built up as the lead characters have developed more. I gather a second series has been commissioned. It is on at the same time as Mr Selfridge - has that reached the States yet? That has received good reviews too - I suspect Downton fans might enjoy it.
I finished Firefly, and I can only say that I was entertained, nothing more. Only the neurotic/compromised women lead the narratives. Take away the backstories, the characters are basic archetypes. Chinese slang replaces Yiddish? not exciting. Book is an obvious buffoon.
Zoe may have been an interesting character, but I couldn't see her rising to the level of Roslin and Starbuck, conspiring to take the raider to Caprica and breaking up the fleet to search Kobol.
I don't think I'd call Firefly ambitious (it's just a mashup), but I do consider it one of the most entertaining shows ever, which is plenty high praise from me. The reliably wonderful writing impeccably served that outcome.
I enjoyed Firefly too between the movie and tv series. I could never get into some of Whedon's stuff, especially Buffy. Dr. Horrible's Sing-A-Long Blog is worth watching at least once.
Oddly, I enjoyed the movie far more than the series with Firefly. The Chinese slang bugged the crap out of me considering he couldn't be bothered to cast ANY Chinese actors. I may have even said it earlier in this thread but, seriously, the Chinese became so powerful that their language was all over the place but they disappeared. The back stories were fairly standard (and actually made the characters more archetypal) and the mishmash of technology and language was too much of affectation rather than a logical extension of the concept.
It was enjoyable and I understand why people like Whedon, but I'll never understand the fawning over him. Avengers is the best thing he's done.
Comments
(I don't have anything against stories with divine themes: I'm a big fan of films like Frailty, Signs, and The Rapture, but those films used their divine endings to ignite what happened earlier, not render it inert.)
ETA: Having said that when I recently saw the final episode of "Enterprise" I had a new most hated tv show finale. BSG is now number 2.
Thanks Doofy for the Criterion news.
*****
I hated the last season of BSG, though I'd really have to watch it again to remember why specifically. It wasn't the religious/divine intervention focus so much (IIRC), but that the writing got hammy and the plot derivative. The Starbuck character was stripped of everything that made her compelling. The inability of the "hidden cylons" to act their way out of a chrome plated bag. Too damn many ghosts and images presented to too damn many characters (I don't mind a few, but when Starbuck played piano with her father's ghost, well, that was def one too many). I dunno. There was probably a lot more things I hated. OH! Yeah, that stupid version of All Along The Watchtower. That stupid final scene of Baltar and the Blonde walking through the city.
Hey, I might have a post up-thread from when I first finished the series. Lemme see if I can find it.
Don't forget discovering an "Earth-like planet."
*****
I didn't mind that they found an earth like planet. But what did bother me (It's all coming back to me now!) was that they avoided the delicious complications of how they'd be received in, say, our/today's society if humans and cylons came down from outer space. Would we accept them, blast them away, would they try to come here secretly and avoid detection? Would they send an envoy to a world leader and try to negotiate their way onto Earth? So many societal and political ramifications/scenarios that had me sooooo ready for the final season, and the writers just said screw it, we're gonna land them on the planet before humans ever really develop, and now everybody is descended from cylons... isn't that cool? Well, no, not really. That would've been cool to learn that the descendants of planet Caprica were that way, and that all along the humans and cylons are basically the same people and fighting a war, not against each other, but, ultimately, against themselves. That would've been cool. For instance, I liked that the 13th colony ("Earth") was, actually, a cylon colony. That was cool. But it would've been much cooler if the writers hadn't said, yeah, cylon colony, BUT, everybody's dead. Lame.
Oh, I sense some serious rants coming on.
Rant away. I'm enjoying this. While I liked the finale itself (except for the Starbuck thing), I hated the Final Five, the dead 13th Colony (not worth divine intervention, I guess), the fact that Gaeta became BOTH gay and evil, the Starbuck-Apollo hate-mance, the hours spent on drunk people in bathtubs, etc. I really hated that the entirety of Tyrol's biography had to be rewritten, that his son wasn't his own, and that he lost his status as defender of the common man. However, I liked the civil war. I consider it a crude necessity of drama that Cavil's Cylons would perish.
That. Not necessarily the 'ending' per se, but they were so flailing about in the last season or two that I lost confidence. A major reason being Starbuck's death/resurrection - Outside of soap operas and comic books, that trick has only been successfully pulled off once in the history of literature!
It wasn't as bad as not much else could as the end of Lost though. That will be one of the worst series finales of all time.
@Doofy: I assume you mean bringing back Spock in Star Trek III?
As for Enterprise, the only thing worthwhile about that show was Dr. Phlox and The Andorian Incident. The other day I stumbled upon "Sins of the Father" from The Next Generation and was reminded how great that show was once they really found their footing.
No, that other guy. Name escapes me at the moment.
I'd forgotten all about Spock! Well, now they've pulled off an even harder trick, making him younger and studlier, along with the rest of the original crew. (Except Kirk, of course...how could you possibly get any studlier than Shatner?)
I still the final TNG episode is a great example of how to send a series out on a high note.
Seasons 3-5 of TNG were the best Trek, full stop! Even the sentimentality of The Offspring, Family and Inner Light will set me weeping. However, 6 and 7 still produced excellent episodes: Chains of Command, Tapestry, Lower Decks and All Good Things were excellent.
For complexity and narrative, DS9 was the best series, IMO. Voyager, yawn. Relaunch? Lobotomized the franchise.
Unfortunately, it does something that annoys me a lot: it presents "strong women" who are really weak, hysterical women, whose strength can only be understood by appreciating a complicated back story, complicated fictional technologies, or complicated alternative realities.
Zoe may have been an interesting character, but I couldn't see her rising to the level of Roslin and Starbuck, conspiring to take the raider to Caprica and breaking up the fleet to search Kobol.
Actually quite looking forward to this - He got the gang together and did this for fun, presumably using a chunk of Avengers money!
It was enjoyable and I understand why people like Whedon, but I'll never understand the fawning over him. Avengers is the best thing he's done.